Interview: Percy Schmeiser, the Man Who Took on Monsanto

What Makes Percy Schmeiser So Persistent?

Interview by Paul Goettlich* / Mindfully.org 27may04

In this interview we learn about the aspects of Percy's life that
contributed to his persistence in the fight against Monsanto since 1998.
Every minute of the hundreds of hours I have spent helping Percy has
benefited all the farmers of the world, just as he feels he has done with 6
years of his life. Monsanto has not won this issue, but has essentially shot
itself in the foot by its vicious attack of Percy and the farmers of the
world. We have not seen the last of Percy Schmeiser. And our struggle to
Reclaim The Commons will be successful!

In a communication to me, Professor Philip L Bereano clearly states that
this case is not a big win for Monsanto or a big loss for us, and that the
Harvard Mouse Case is Alive and Well. He strongly advises us all to read the
actual text of the Supreme Court ruling [see link below] and not take the
word of the biobizz [Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, and other
newspapers that are heavily influenced by the biotech industry.]

Further Reading
1. Supreme Court of Canada Ruling on appeal from Federal Court of Appeal
21may04
2. Schmeiser Decision Causes Uproar Around the World - CNW (Canada) 21may04
3. Highly recommended: Heartbreak in the Heartland: The True Cost of
Genetically Engineered Crops
4. More on Monsanto
5. For an audio CD of this interview, contact Mindfully.org ($5 in the US)

* Paul Goettlich writes about the health and socioeconomic effects of
technology -- pesticides, plastics, genetic engineering, nuclear radiation,
and so on. He is a member of the Sierra Club Genetic Engineering Committee
and is an advisor to nonprofits on technology. His latest article was
published in Living Nutrition magazine, "Get Plastic Out of Your Diet."

(Louise Schmeiser, Percy's wife answers the telephone) Hello?

Paul Goettlich (PG): Hi Louise. This is Paul Goettlich speaking.

Louise Schmeiser (LS): Hi, how are you doing?

PG: I'm fine. How are you?

LS: Good. Good.

PG: Could I talk to Percy please?

LS: OK.

PG: Thank you very much.

Percy Schmeiser (PS): Hello

PG: Oh, hi Percy. I'm calling to talk to you. You know we arranged to have
the interview [today].

PS: Yes

PG: So, how are you?

PS: Oh, I'm really fine, thanks Paul. We've had a little rain today. And I
had some great meetings over the weekend. So, [I'm] getting over the
decision of the Supreme Court.

PG: Good.

PS: I've had calls from all over for world and there's a pretty big concern
here in Canada with what the judges had ruled. You don't even need a patent
on a higher life form as long as you just patent a gene and you inserted
into a higher life form. And that can be anything -- plant, all the way to
a human being.

PG: Percy, what will you do next? There are a lot of people who'd like to
know that. Now that the Supreme Court of Canada finally ruled on your case
with Monsanto, what's next?

PS: Well, really what's next is that we have to look at the lawsuit that
was filed with the courts on the issue of contamination of my crops, my pure
seeds, and my developed seed by Monsanto and whether my wife and I go ahead
with that. But, that is a decision that we'll be making in the next couple
of weeks. We want some time to think it over. And at this point in time,
Louise, my wife doesn't want me to go ahead. She said it's time that we
spend, at our age -- 72 that she is, I'm 73 -- that we spend more time
together and do the things that we always wanted to do in our retirement
age. You know, things like to spend more time with our 15 grandchildren, or
five children. Whether it's taken fishing or to be... A lot of times I
missed their graduation, I was gone. I missed a baptism or whatever. But if
we do not go ahead with the liability lawsuit against Monsanto, what I
still would do, and it's something we discussed today, is I would still go
to wherever I'm invited to speak about the issues of what [Monsanto's]
contract does -- how you can have contamination, the total control over
lifeforms. But I wouldn't do it at the hectic pace that I was doing it
before. I would try and cut it down a good percentage so that I could spend
more time at home. So, that's what my intentions would be right now.

PG: How many flights were you taking? This is May 27th [2004] today. That's
the fifth month. How many flights have you had? And I know there are other
things too.

PS: Since the first of January, I probably had at least over 100 flights.
But besides even for 100 flights I have driven to Winnipeg and to Calgary,
which are seven or eight hour drives. I have driven once to California. I
have driven into the Dakotas. So besides the flights there was also a lot
of driving. For example, last week I drove to Calgary, which is a seven
hour drive. So I've spent a lot of time flying and it becomes a real job to
get up, many times, at 3 o'clock in the morning to catch your flight. So,
it has not always been easy.

Not only that, to give you an example, I've cut down the size of my farm by
renting it out. But this week, I was back on the tractor. We've finished
seeding yesterday. It was just great to get back onto the land, to sit in
and watch nature all day long, to watch the sunrise and set, and to watch
the birds and the wild animals that you see when you working in the field.
It's really something to do that because I wasn't able to do that for the
last two and three years. So, it was really something to get back to. But
again, I would still give my time to talk about [the fact that] no one
should have the right to patent life, no one should be able to claim
ownership of life. So I still would spend time talking to people all over
the world, where ever I may be called to.

PG: I think that should make them sit easy for a while, hearing this. A lot
of people I know are curious about that. How many countries have you been
in so far?

PS: With the GMO issue, I've probably visited between 40 and 50 countries.
But in my life, before this all happened, my wife and I had spent the
winter months -- when we couldn't do much else here because we were
straight grain farmers. Our family also had a farm implement dealership. In
the slow months like the middle of January to the end of February, or
sometimes the end of March, my wife and I would spend time in third world
countries helping in the health field or different projects. So, I would
say, myself, I've been in at least 147 or 148 different countries since
1962.

We've seen a lot of poverty. We've seen a lot of field oppression. And
especially, we were really concerned about children -- starvation and
disease. That's why we spend a lot of time in these countries doing as much
as we could and helping people. Generally, we traveled with doctors or with
nurses and so on. Whether it's across the Sahara Desert or if it's in the
fifth Asian countries, or whatever, we spent a lot of time doing that. What
that did, before Monsanto laid the lawsuit against me, was to give us a
broad knowledge of the culture of people, the way they live, the hardships
they go through, the hunger, the starvation, the sickness, and so on. And
so, when we saw what Monsanto was doing -- trying to take the rights of
farmers away so that they could not use their seeds from year to year for
their plants -- we realized with the implications would be on Third World
farmers. So that's why my wife and I took that stand, because the
implications of the farmer in the Third World country...it's bad enough in
our countries [Canada and U.S.], but to try to make a farmer there to try
and force them to buy seed each year, and the have to use chemicals... well,
we knew the implications of that. [Monsanto] would have total control over
those farmers and take all their rights. Whatever little rights they have
left would be taken away. And that's why, I think maybe fate brought me to
this point that I had an understanding, a big understanding of what was
going on in the world with the control -- not only by governments, but by
corporations that were knocked good public citizens, taking the rights of
people away.

PG: If they can do this to you, just think what they can do to some poor
farmer in India, or Pakistan, or...

PS: Right. That's a good point Paul. I was speaking at the university in
Mexico City about one or two years ago, and there was a Mexican farmer, a
head of one of the organizations (Miguel Ramírez Domínguez, President of the
Communal Property Commissariat of Capulalpan de Méndez, Ixtlán, Oaxaca, one
of the communities affected by the contamination of their maize by
Monsanto's GMO corn genes) came from the state of Oaxaca [who] is also gave
a presentation at the university. When we left, when we parted after the
meeting, he was going back to the state in Mexico, and I was going back to
Canada, I'll never forget the look in his eyes and what he said. He put his
arm around my shoulder and he hugged me and he said, "Percy, don't give up.
At least some of you people in North America have a chance to fight back.
We don't have a chance to fight back. We don't the resources to do that."
And when you look in those eyes, and you see how they've lost half of their
indigenous corn to GMO contamination it just gave me more incentive. And
often his picture goes through my mind when I see how the rights of people
are being taken away. And then if you take the culture of corn, or the
culture of the Mexican people that at one time, and still to some people in
Mexico, corn was a god -- a corn god. There's more than just the seeds and
the plants, it's a whole cultural issue. Those are some of the things,
Paul, that my wife and I have seen -- the brutality, the suppression of
people's rights, and freedom of being taken away.

We weren't just on tours. Originally when we started traveling, for the
first few years, that's what we did. But once we knew about traveling we
send went on our own. We got away from the tourist traps. We went and lived
with the people. We ate their food. We suffered with them. We had joyous
occasions with them. And so, that's how you really learn and understand the
feelings of people. You share with them their hardships and their joys. It
gave me a real background. As my wife has always said, and I've wondered,
"Why was it us? Why was it us that stood up to Monsanto?" Or, "Why was it
us that were placed in a position to stand up to Monsanto?"

PG: Yes. It took a certain amount power to do that.

PS: Another thing, Paul, is something I never talk about. I really
shouldn't be here. In my lifetime I've had three major accidents. One
accident...I was one of the few who would ever come out of it alive. And
every morning when I wake up and I thank God I have another day, because,
like I said, I lived through it. I was in some major, major accident --
farm equipment accident(s). I was literally torn apart. I was told I would
never walk again and things like that. I survived them and I came through
them, and I think it gave me such a desire to fight, to really fight. I had
to fight for my life...to live. I did everything possible to try and stay
alive in those accidents. I think it instills in you a real fighting
spirit. [So] when Monsanto came along and tried to take the rights of
people away, I think that spirit of standing up to them -- how I had to
fight for my own life in those accidents and survived. When you are told
that you'll never walk again and when you are torn apart from head to foot,
there was a desire there that I would survive.

PG: Could you explain that one... the stone puller. You told me about that.
What is a stone puller?

PS: What it is, Paul, they call them stone pickers. It's a mechanical unit.
They're about seven feet wide and they have huge reels on them. There's a
rotating reel like a rototiller, as an example. But it's huge. It's maybe
five feet across and seven feet long. You drive with them hooked behind the
tractor and there's a big bucket that probably would hold two to three tons
of stones. You drive around and this thing rotates, it's driven by a power
takeoff from the tractor. And it picks up the stones. You could pick up a
stone the size of... oh, the size of a gas barrel, a 45 gallon drum quite
easily with it.

And this is what happened. Because [I was checking on] the machine... I got
[caught] in the machine and I was in that machine for over 20 minutes. I was
going around. And it's all made out of steel with steel bats, steel forks on
it. I was literally torn apart like a stone. But a stone is a lot stronger
than a human body. That was quite an experience. I still suffer nightmares
from it. This happened in ' 79.

PG: Do you mind me asking you questions about it? Is it okay if I ask you
questions about it?

PS: Sure, no problem.

PG: When you are with me last, I think you indicated that the stone would
be a foot and a half to 2 feet high?

PS: Oh, at least.

PG: And more?

PS: You can pick up little stones the size of a gallon pail, like that, or
smaller. You can pick up stones right down to the size of your fist.

PG: And how big are the prongs, these things that stick out? Are they an
inch in diameter?

PS: They're like teeth. And the teeth would measure about seven to eight
inches long and they may be separated by two inches across. There are three
rows of those about seven feet long on a steel plate and that's what
rotates.

PG: Were you alone in the field operating this thing?

PS: That's right. Yes. I went out to check this machine after supper. It
was a beautiful August evening here. And there was a malfunction and I went
to see what it was. At that time, I was bending over and the power takeoff
was still in gear. And the machine started in caught me in my chest or
stomach and whirled me & threw me up in the air. Then I came headfirst down,
back into the machine. And I went around and around in it until my feet got
caught underneath the apron that lifts the stones in. Then an automatic
slip-clutch kicked in and my body acted as the wedge. That slip-clutch is a
piece of steel, like that clutch, and that wore that piece of steel -- it's
about 18 inches in diameter -- wore that steel down, from slipping, file
save a good quarter inch. That's how long I was in it -- until the neighbor
heard me scream and yell. And he got the tractor stopped.

PG: Wow. These things penetrated your body all over.

PS: Well, I was penetrated 37 places on my body. The only place that I was
not hurt was my head and my right arm. It took me four and a half years to
recover -- to learn to walk again. [I had] many operations. But in the
meantime, after I got out of the hospital I was still is able to do
business work. I still went into a tractor. One of the first things that I
did after I was able to do so, I went back into a tractor. I had one of the
people helped me hooked onto a stone picker, and I went out and pick stones
so that I would get over the fear of a stone picker.

PG: I had a feeling that was coming.

PS: (Laughter)

PG: The last time that I talked to you, you said that it nearly took your
leg off.

PS: Well, yes. One leg was almost torn right out. That's another thing they
had to do. It was about three-quarters of an inch difference in length. It
almost literally pulled one leg right out of my body. It was a painful
thing that happened, but I was the only person ever known to survive going
into a stone picker and coming out alive.

PG: Didn't the doctor tell you that you'd never walk again?

PS: That's what I was told -- I would never walk again. I remember saying
to the two doctors, who were personal friends of mine, that I would do
everything possible to fight it and to try to live. I said, "You do your
part and I'll do my part." They really worked on me for many months, in
fact years. I was on crutches, I don't know for how long. It was quite an
experience. But I had a desire to live.

I translate that desire to live to the sufferings of other people... how
they try and live with facing hunger and starvation. I was in a stone
picker, but they are in a situation that many of those people can never get
out of. I was able to get to a hospital. I was able to have medical help
and to get treated. But these people don't have that help. And they suffer.

What is the difference if I would have died in a stone picker or these
people that I've seen in many parts of the world die of hunger? Or their
parents see their children die of diseases or other ailments?

PG: ... and also to know that they don't have to [suffer and die that
way].

PS: That's right. And you know, many times I've seen food aid sitting on
the wharfs after being unloaded from ships, and because of the military, or
friction between the governments or parties in the country, the food wasn't
distributed, or the transportation was being controlled by an army. And
here you had food going to waste and not going to people. I've see all
those things happen. And I've seen food aid from many, many countries sold
in the markets in many of these countries, whether it was cooking oil or
..., it was sold through the black market. Many times I'd see cans that
said "not for resale." This is food aid whether it was from Germany or the
United States, and yet it was being sold in the markets.

PG: Devinder Sharma from New Delhi speaks about the effects of genetic
engineering and globalization on countries like India. He says that in the
hunger belt of India, where there can be thousands of people dying, in that
same area where people are starting to death there's hundreds of thousands
of tons of grain sitting, rotting in the field because...for some political
reason or other. They're not selling it to the people because the people
have no money. [More on Devinder Sharma]

PS: That's what's happening. A couple years ago, when I was back in India,
the state of Punjab had 60 million tons of excess food. In many areas of
India people were hungry and were starving. It's politics, it's economics,
and it's transportation. Right now, one and a half times more food is
produced than what is needed in the world. And yet, you have many, many
people in the world who are hungry.

You have to have the will of the governments to be able to do this -- to
feed people and to get it to these people. And as I said, the Monsantos of
the world, when they say that will now always have sustainable agriculture
and will be able to the hungry world with GMOs, that's further from the
truth...that's the last thing in their minds. Because now we've seen with
the introduction of GMOs [that] it's poor quality, less yield, and more
chemical use than ever before, with more toxic chemicals to kill the weeds
him because a lot of the weeds have become so resistant to chemicals now.
So, that's all it means [to them]. It's more chemical sales. And now GMOs
[have] control of seeds and plants, and ultimately the food supply. Anybody
can control a nation quite easily if they've got control of the food.

PG: And that's what they've done.

PS: And that's exactly what they've done. And that's what will happen with
the decision from the Supreme Court of Canada when they give all the power
and control over seeds, plants, and basically life, to multinational
corporations.

PG: I'm looking forward to good things coming out of India now that they've
gotten rid of the ruling party. They have the elections just recently.
There's still more confusion going on. But still, they've gotten rid of
these people who were going to give away the country to the wonderful likes
of Monsanto. There should be some good things coming out of there.

PS: I would hope so.

Yesterday I was on a phone interview on a radio station with Vandana Shiva
and another person. I forget just from where. She said in the interview
that farmers weren't told in India that if they buy this seed, the
following year when they went to use it, that they couldn't use it, that
they have to pay license fees, that they have to buy seed again. And she
said that a lot of people didn't know what would happen. They believed what
the seed company said and what Monsanto said. And then, the following year
when they couldn't use this seed, they have to buy it again. So it totally
destroyed them. And that's when she went on to [tell] about the thousands
of suicides that have occurred in her country.

There's a lot of concern now by medical people about the use of
insecticides, pesticides, and herbicides. A lot of the areas [in Canada] do
not allow any chemical sprayed on the lawns or parks especially, because
who primarily sits and plays on the grass? Kids, right?

PG: Yes. I know.

PS: So a lot of them are restricted now. You cannot use any chemicals,
especially in parks.

So, If you've got dandelions, then you've got dandelions. (Chuckles)

PG: Well, it's a mindset.

PS: Yes.

PG: It takes education.

PS: There's more awareness of this now, Paul. Some of the papers now are
saying here that what my case has done is it has created an awareness that
did not exist before. Really, in a way, I think I accomplished, to some
degree, in another area that I never expected -- the awareness of people
not only to GMOs but also to the chemicals and the harm that it's not only
doing to the environment but also to us as human beings. In that way, my
lawyer said, "Things have changed. You really have changed things." That
made me feel good. He said that by going around the world and telling
people, not only about the issue of GMOs, but also the whole issue of the
contracts, their extortion letters, and how they suppress people's rights
and freedom of speech. He said that's a whole other issue that you brought
forward.

PG: It's wonderful what you've done. I'm in awe of what you've
accomplished.

PS: Thanks Paul. You see, people are saying that when you have a [Supreme
Court] decision that is four-five or five-four -- whatever way you want to
call it to -- they said that shows how much dissension there is in the
Supreme Court. And especially one statement by one of the chief justices, a
lady, she said the Supreme Court is not consistent now because they did not
allow a higher lifeform to be patented in the Harvard mouse case. Now you
still don't allow that patent, but you allow the control and ownership
through the patenting of a gene. And when that's inserted in the mouse, you
now own the mouse and control it. So, there's a lot of dissension in the
Supreme Court over my case. And that's why people are saying here it should
have never been in the Supreme Court in the first place. It should have
been at the Parliament of Canada. And we have a federal election that has
been called for the end of June. So you can imagine the pressure that is
being put on politicians. In fact, when I speak tomorrow night in B.C.
(British Colombia), there are going to be representatives there that are
not only from the provincial government but also candidates who are running
in a federal.

PG: Do you think something will come out of it?

PS: Well, there's a lot of pressure because some of the main-line
organizations are saying they are they are not going to rest now until they
get it before the Parliament of Canada.

People are alarmed. What they are really alarmed at is that the judges gave
the companies total control of the seed, plant, and food. And people are
alarmed over that. They feel that they've gone too far.

PG: Percy, that's essentially what they did, but they didn't state it like
that, did they?

PS: No, but the legal people and law professors are saying that...well...

PG: ...by default. That's what they did.

PS: That's exactly what they did. But, having said that, [and that's going
to help the organic farmers] is the fact that they are now saying that the
liability issue will follow the gene flow. So, where everything gene ends
up, whether it's by an insertion deliberately or whether it's
cross-pollination, then it follows that if Monsanto has the ownership and
control and it follows the liability issue, then they are responsible for
what happens in the contamination.

PG: Do you know Professor Joe Cummins?

PS: Yes.

PG: I saw something that he sent out through the GM Watch listserv. It was
a 2002 study that was talking about how they saw changes within the cells
of, I think it was, mice or rats that were fed GMOs. I have a feeling that
what it's saying is that there are changes that are going on here that
don't happen normally.

PS: Right. When I spent time in India with Dr. Pusztai, from England, he
was telling me [about] experiments [showing] the increased rate of growth
cells in the gut. Now the German [and the Dutch] people are saying that
they have horizontal gene transfer. So, that is to show that it does out of
the stomach into the bloodstream, and now, also out of the intestine. It's
just like anything else, like the tobacco industry. It takes that many years
to find out. And that's the trouble [with not] having labeling. That's
another thing. People here are really starting to demand labeling. They
(industry representatives) always made such an issue [that] it would be
costly -- people couldn't afford it. Well, if people in other countries can
have it, I'm sure that we can have it here.

PG: I'm sure of it too. Its nonsense that it costs too much.

PS: With labeling itself, my goodness Paul, when you buy anything in a
store or package, it's all in two languages. Well, if they can do that,
they surely can label it.

PG: You have French and English up there [in Canada].

PS: Right, on everything that you buy.

PG: You said there were three accidents that you had. Which number was this
farming accident?

PS: Actually what happened [another time was that I] was pulled out
unconscious [from] an ocean. I got swept by an undercurrent. That was a
very close call. They brought me back. I was totally unconscious...full
of... So, that was one.

And then, when I climbed Kilimanjaro with an international group from
Canada, the United States, New Zealand, and so on. We met and other group
climbing, and they were revolutionaries from Tanzania. They were going to
place their flag on the top of the mountain. I was a faster climber in my
group and I said that I wouldn't mind traveling with them for a half a day
or to the next level. [I wanted] to see why they were revolutionaries,
welfare plans were, and so on. One person could speak English. During the
course of traveling with them for a few hours, I gave one of them my water
flask. He was a carrier of an African hepatitis sort of thing. Four weeks
or later when I was back in Canada...he was a carrier, I had contracted
from him... and I had only a 50/50 chance to live. I was seven months in
the hospital. I did survive it ultimately.

So those are the three things that happen to me.

PG: When you got back to Canada when did you first figure this out?

PS: Well, about three weeks after I was back, all of a sudden I was
starting to get weak and it was right in seeding time. All of a sudden I
could hardly lift a shovel. Then I started turning yellow. Then, basically
I went unconscious for about 16 or 17 days. I was on intravenous. They
thought they were going to do an exploratory operation to see what was
wrong. They didn't know because we didn't have that type of hepatitis in
Canada. There was an Indian doctor and he said, "You only have a 50/50
chance now to live. If we do an exploratory operation to see what's wrong
with you," he said, "your chances are pretty slim," but that I have to
make the choice. I made the choice not to have the operation. And because
he was from India he had some idea of what type of hepatitis I had. My eyes
were even yellow... my whole body... everything. It was the right choice. It
took seven months to recover.

PG: [During that time were you in isolation]?

PS: Oh, yes. It was total isolation, as they call it. Even my wife, when
she came to visit me she had to wear a complete rubber gown, even a mask,
rubber boots, gloves, everything. People could come to the door, but that
was as far as they would be permitted. You can imagine how I felt when [I]
realized that [I] must have some sort of a plague. (chuckles) But slowly I
survived it, but I lost a lot of weight. I lost, I don't know, 30 pounds,
something like that. But I did come through with it. As a result of that I
still have to watch...I can't drink...I'm not supposed to touch any liquor
or anything like that. It still has an effect on me. But as far as my
physical health is concerned, I have very good health.

Those are some of things I had to overcome in my life.

That's what made me a fighter. I guess people call me a fighter because I
had to fight to live.

PG: You know Percy; I think that you must have had that spirit in you
before this stuff happened. No?

PS: I guess so, yeah. I think it's just something that's in the nature of a
person. But there is one thing always really bothers me. If I hear somebody
who is sick say, "I wish I would die," it's just puts something through me
because what I had done [to survive]. I fought so hard to live. And when
somebody says that, it really bothers me.

PG: But they're different. It's foreign to you. It's just not something
that would come through your mind.

PS: Well, yes.

PG: You know? That's just the way you are. I see you as an incredibly
positive person. Any time that I have ever seen you, you're just always
positive.

PS: There were several things that, Paul, that I found out in my life. You
always have to look at things in a positive way. And I've always tried to
maintain this. Even with this whole fight or legal battle with Monsanto, I
always looked at things in a positive way. What is my case doing? If it
doesn't help me, is it helping other people? And what will happen down the
road? The other point I always have found is that if something would
happen, I would never ever let myself become bitter. And sometimes that's a
very difficult thing not to do -- not to become bitter when things happen to
you. [My wife and I] knew that if we ever become bitter that we would
destroy ourselves within and that we always must take a positive attitude.
And we always found too, Paul, that you can never give something away that
you don't have. If you don't have understanding, if you don't have
compassion, if you don't have love, you cannot give it away if you don't
have it yourself. We've tried to live but that. You have to have it was in
yourself before you can give anything away.

PG: I'm curious to what got you -- before you got into all this stuff with
Monsanto, you have been taking trips to these countries and living with the
people -- how did you get to a place in your mind where you wanted to do
this? First of all, how old for you when you started doing that?

PS: Well, it probably was around '62. So I was 31. But then, you see Paul,
all my life I was in the government. I was a Member of Parliament, a member
of the provincial legislature, which you would call your state legislature.
Coming from a rural constituency...although I had fairly large urban
centers in...but [a good proportion of those I represented were primarily
farmers]. So, in the legislature I always fought for rules, laws, and
regulations that would benefit farmers. I was on many agricultural
committees and programs on the provincial level. Then, many times I
represented my province on the federal level on agricultural policies. So,
all my life I always fought for rules, laws, and regulations that I thought
would benefit farmers. That gave me quite a background too. And then the
whole issue of the traveling to see the world to see how other people lived
-- their hardships and their joys and so on.

PG: But you are curious about that? I don't know many people like you
becauseS most that I know would go to some sunny beach somewhere. And the
most that they would see of anybody would be the people that wait on them.

PS: Yeah. You know, a lot of my political friends, when I would come back
[from an expedition] for two months, living in a pup tent, crossing the
Sahara Desert, or something like that... and what I would come home a lot
of my colleagues would say to me, "What's wrong with you Percy? Why don't
you and your wife just go to Hawaii or some beach somewhere (both of us
laugh at this) and enjoy yourself, instead of going through such grueling
trips.

To give you an example; we crossed the Sahara Desert one time, from one end
to the other. It took us sixty days. My wife and I lived in the pup tent.
Sometimes we were lost in sandstorms. But that's the things we did just to
see how other people lived into experience or profit by what they were
going through in their cultures.

How can you learn the culture of a people, or to know, or to feel how other
people feel unless you stay with them and travel through their country --
not in tourist traps, but the way I did, on long expeditions.

PG: I don't think most people want to know.

PS: (Chuckles) Yeah...yeah, I think you're right, because they want to
close their eyes to it. They know it's there, but they don't want to see
it.

PG: No, because that would make them think.

PS: Exactly.

PG: You cannot hate somebody; you cannot abuse somebody if you know them.

PS: Right. You know, my wife and I always had a great respect and love for
children. We had five of our own. And we now have 15 grandchildren. But
many times, when I've come back from trips in Africa or Central America,
but especially Africa and Bangladesh, and so on, I would come home and we
would go to a fall supper and see children leaving half a plateful of food.
You can imagine what went through my wife's mind and my mind when we saw
thousands and thousands of African children with big bellies and
malnutrition and going hungry. And here, you see platefuls of food being
thrown in the garbage. That's still haunts us today when we go somewhere,
even to a restaurant and you see half plates of food or a little bit eaten
going back and being thrown into the garbage.

It gives you more of a realization of what is going on and what is
happening in the world -- the suffering that is happening there.

PG: I think we all need that.

PS: I've often said that everyone should be given a ticket or a plane fair
to one of these countries and to see how other people lived. And I think
when they come home they be more content with what we had our country of
the United States or Canada -- how fortunate we really are. But we don't
realize it, we don't understand it, and we don't appreciate it.

PG: We used to have a draft here in the U.S. And it may come back again, I
don¹t know, with this Kerry character that's probably going to be a our
next president. But this kind of thing...there is a public service that
needs to be done. And it's not being done. There's no connection between
people and society -- the reality of what it all means. They don't know
what it means. So how would they ever want to protect it if they don't even
know what it means? There's no connection.

PS: Paul, that's exactly it. The people don't have a realization. They are
in their own little world. And they don't get out of that little world. And
they don't really know...as you said, a lot of people don't want to know
exactly what's going on. They just want to stay in their own little area.
[They say,] "don't tell me about it. Leave me alone. I'm going to do my own
thing."

PG: In their spare time they read a nice novel of fiction and they watch
all the latest news coming from the same people who areS they¹re being paid
by Monsanto for advertising. And so they¹re just naturally not going to get
reality news on the television that they watch. And they don't go anywhere.
But they¹re consumers. They have whatever the next best radio or TV is so
that they can listen [or watch] 500 stations. And none of them have anything
on them.

Do you watch much TV?

PS: No. No. I don't. Paul, I don't have time. But, you know Paul, there's a
whole other aspect to this. Our family... we've always been a very close
family, a tight knit family. But there's more to that. In our fight, in our
struggle with Monsanto, in our legal battle with them, I could not have
done it alone. I had the support of people all over the world and people
here -- my friends, my neighbors, and so on...

PG: ...and Louise.

PS: ... and my wife. I could not have done this without that.

And then there's another part of this. My wife has a very strong faith and
she prays a lot. We're Catholics. She goes to mass almost every day. She
does her walks. She gets her walks -- it's three-quarters of a mile. She
does that every day. I think that faith has carried us through many, many
times.

A couple years ago, I said to my wife Louise, I said, "Louise, let's make
a deal. You do the praying and I'll do the fighting."

PG: (A very hardy laugh)

PS: And I think it's worked out quite well. But you do have to have...we do
have a very strong faith. We're not fanatics you know or anything like
that. But we appreciate the works of God. And we respect that. And that's
why we respect the opinions of other people, and appreciate that. But
anyway, I think you have to have something within you, as I said before.
You cannot give anything away that you don't have yourself.

PG: That's quite true.

I think this is a very good place to end. And I want to thank you so much
for giving me this opportunity to interview you. It's always a pleasure to
speak with you.

PS: Well, Paul, it's really been great. I've known you for probably a
couple years now.

Going back when we set up to Monsanto, in closing, we always felt that the
rights of farmers should never be taken away, and that they always are able
to use their seeds from year to year. If you take those rights away and you
stop the future development of new seeds and plants around the world. Not
only that, farmers would become just serfs of the land. And you¹re back to
a feudal system and you¹d lose total control of the food supply to a
corporation.

So, with that Paul, it was really a pleasure talking with you. I really
enjoy it when ever I have the chance to stay with you.

PG: Well, thank you Percy. Thank you. And when you do come to the San
Francisco Bay Area, you must stay with me.

PS: I'm sure I'll be able to take you up on that offer. Also, before a
leave I'd like to say hello to your wife, and especially also to your son.

PG: OK. Thank you very much.

PS: OK Paul. Goodbye.